[The Well Endowed Podcast theme music plays] 

Graeme Lummer [00:00:25] Hi everyone. Welcome to ECF’s Well Endowed Podcast. I’m Graeme Lummer.

Anna400;"> [00:00:30] And I’m Anna Alfonso. Edmonton is full of generous donors who have created endowment funds at Edmonton Community Foundation.

Graeme [00:00:37] These funds are carefully stewarded to generate money that supports charities in Edmonton and beyond.

Anna [00:00:43] On this podcast, we share stories about how these funds help strengthen our community… because it’s good to be well endowed.

Graeme [00:00:50] It’s February and that means it’s Black History Month. Do you have any plans to celebrate, Anna?

Anna [00:00:56] I do, actually. And I’m so excited to be attending 5 Artists 1 Love’s Joyful Noise concert at the Winspear Centre this weekend. Every year, 5 Artists 1 Love presents a night of music inspired by Black history. This year’s lineup of performers will be taking their inspiration from songs and genres that inspire joy and feature music created during times of struggle.

Graeme [00:01:19] I’ve always heard such good things about 5 Artists 1 Love. It’s also great that ECF has been sponsoring this event since 2018. This year’s show is happening February 3rd at the Winspear Centre. And you can find more information at 5artists1love.com.

Anna [00:01:34] And if you can’t make it to the concert, you can still support 5 Artists 1 Love by catching their annual art exhibit, featuring five selected Black artists at the Art Gallery of Alberta. It runs until March 3rd.

Graeme [00:01:47] Since it’s Black History month, we decided to go back into our archives to bring you a replay of an episode from our 2022 Vital Signs series.

Anna [00:01:54] ECF’s 2022 Vital Signs initiative explored the history of racism in Edmonton. This work was done in collaboration with Edmonton’s Social Planning Council, and with guidance from a dedicated committee made of people with lived experience.

[The Well Endowed Podcast jingle plays in background]

Graeme [00:02:09] In this replay, Emily Rendell-Watson speaks with three incredible community members with experience in data research, urban planning, and activism to help us understand how bias and data gathering can impact representation of communities.

Emily Rendell-Watson [00:02:22] The Edmonton Community Foundation has been exploring the history of racism in Edmonton through this year’s Vital Signs report. Now, as you might remember, Vital Signs is a checkup that measures how the community is faring. And through this work, the committee working on this project learned that there are still many communities and people that are not included in a meaningful way through typical data gathering processes. Data for Vital Signs is gathered through resources like Statistics Canada, but it doesn’t always tell the whole story, which means there are many not recognized as the multifaceted individuals that they are. And those gaps also leave people feeling unheard or unseen. So let’s dig into this issue of racism and bias in data gathering and reporting with a few of our Vital Signs committee members who have kindly agreed to share their experiences and perspectives. 

[00:03:11] But first I want you to hear from Sydney Sheloff, the Strategic Research Coordinator at the Edmonton Social Planning Council. She’s here to give us some more context on this issue and explain how the Edmonton Community Foundation partners with the Edmonton Social Planning Council to produce Vital Signs.

Sydney Sheloff [00:03:27] Yeah, so Edmonton Social Planning Council’s role is generally to collect the data that is shared in the Vital Signs report. Uh, so we do not collect primary data, but rather source data that has already been collected. You know, from large data collection agencies such as Statistics Canada, university-based research, reports by nonprofit, and places like that. Um, and then we have a committee who will direct what data we collect and they will review and critique the data that Edmonton Social Planning Council collects for the purposes of the report. Um, and then it is up to the Edmonton Community Foundation to kind of pick which data they actually want to put in the report and tell the story of the data.

Emily [00:04:12] So what does bias and racism in data gathering look like in the work that you do?

Sydney [00:04:17] So, first of all, I think it’s important to knowledge— acknowledge where that bias comes from in the first place. So… data gathering has traditionally been used in ways that have harmed BIPOC folks living in Canada. Research has been done on Indigenous people without their consent. Um, and the research itself has caused a lot of harm throughout history. Uh, data has also been used to justify colonization and reinforce racist ideologies. And that history, uh, still affects research to this day. And it is what has created a lot of those anchoring biases. Some examples of how that actually shows up in the research that I look at for Vital Signs. One example is, you know, the categories that a lot of research organizations use. Um, Statistics Canada uses the term “visible minority,” which a lot of folks do not identify with and actually find offensive. A lot of the times you can’t even find data about certain groups living in Canada.

[00:05:16] So, for example, uh, Statistics Canada has lots of data on the experiences of immigrants and children of immigrants, but little on the people of colour who have lived here for generations. Chinese people came to Canada as early as 1858 and Black immigrants were creating settlements as early as the early 1900s. Yet it’s almost impossible to find data on these groups of people, and it completely erases their history in Canada and turns them into, uh, what we call perpetual foreigners. They’re not really accepted as part of Canada, and as— are always seen as other and always lumped into categories that, again, they don’t identify with. 

[00:05:54] Bias can also show up in who is doing the research and who is formulating the research questions. ‘Cause regardless of our intentions, you know, ingrained biases are ingrained in us, and as such will always seep into the research process. Um, and if research is done by people from privileged social groups, uh, these biases that show up are gonna benefit those privileged social groups and just re— end up reproducing inequities. We also have to pay attention to why different organizations are collecting it. You know, collecting data just to collect data ultimately does not benefit the people who are studied. And at worst, it can be used to misconstrue important issues. 

[00:06:36] Um, like I said earlier, data has been used and it continues to be used to harm BIPOC folks and reinforce harmful stereotypes. You know, any data that’s collected really needs to be contextualized. So in incarceration data, we can see that Indigenous folks are overrepresented in incarceration. Uh, overrepresentation basically means that Indigenous peoples make-up in prisons is larger than their make-up in the general population. And so, if you don’t contextualize this data, you know, someone with maybe a more— who doesn’t, like, know about, like, the intricacies of how folks end up incarcerated may look at that data and use it to reinforce their stereotypes. They might look at, you know, the data that Indigenous people are overrepresented in prisons and say, you know, “This proves my point that they are violent or prone to crime or bad people,” et cetera.

Emily [00:07:34] Okay, so that makes a lot of sense in terms of… some of the real challenges that I’m sure you’ve encountered and that come along with actually presenting a picture that shows the full story. How are some of these biases or this racism that is very ingrained in— in how we gather data and report— How are these things being tackled?

Sydney [00:08:00] Um, so the Edmonton Social Planning Council, we’ve begun working to better engage with OCAP principles. So OCAP stands for Ownership, Control, Access, and Possession. And OCAP essentially guides how researchers should engage with Indigenous communities as they do research with them, um, in a way that respects their rights and gives Indigenous communities sovereignty over their own data. You know, they get to have input into the research questions, the research methodologies. They get to control their actual data rather than, you know, researchers holding their data. They get to, uh, have a say over how it is presented. Like, what parts of their data get shared and what don’t.

Emily [00:08:44] That was Sydney Sheloff from the Edmonton Social Planning Council. The council published a report in 2021 that further explores why Canada needs desegregated race-based data, and how it can help to dismantle racist systems. You can find that report at edmontonsocialplanning.ca. 

Next, I’d like to introduce you to Lucenia Ortiz, a longtime planner with the City of Edmonton who is now retired. She is passionate about the collection of race-based data, and has participated on the Alberta Anti-Racism Advisory Council, Edmonton Public School’s Equity Advisory Committee, and the Edmonton Race-Based Data Community Table. Here’s her story.

Lucenia Ortiz [00:09:19] I arrived in Canada in 1994, so I’ve been here more— over 20 years. And like many newcomers, we went through the Skilled Workers Program. So we came here with our, you know— our skills and credentials, background, and work experience. But most of all, really high hopes that our lives will improve and have a secure future here in Canada. When I came here, uh, I carried with me a Master’s in Urban and Regional Planning. I have— I was a licensed planner back home in the Philippines with over, uh, 10 years experience, both working in urban and rural areas. And, uh, I remember quite well when I was interviewed by the consular officer that you— he, too, was really excited when he learned that I was an urban planner because he pointed out to me all these big cities in Canada that needed, uh, urban planners. However, when I arrived, first of all, it was such a challenge to find work in my field. It’s like a… a chicken and egg situation.

[00:10:35] Um, most of the, um, ads will say, “Well, we need a licensed, uh, urban planner.” But to get a license, uh, in this profession, you have to have years of experience working in this field, but you can’t work in this field without a license. So— And that’s been my own experience in… in the other work that I’ve done. Like, I said, “Well, maybe I have community development experience, maybe I’ll work in the community development field.” But many of those I have applied, were looking for Canadian experience. They’ll say, “Well, you’re not really familiar with the community development field, and so we need someone who has experience.” But I really felt it was unfair because how can I have community development experience in Canada? I just arrived a couple of months ago. But I do have, like, 15 years of experience working in this field back home.

[00:11:36] So I decided if I can’t get a Canadian experience, maybe I should get a Canadian education. Uh, I applied for— in the PhD program at the University of Alberta, got accepted, and after four years, uh, studying part-time, I finally got my PhD in human ecology, uh, focusing on health equity, particularly around immigrants. Months before I graduated, I already got an offer to teach, uh, in one of the— uh, now the MacEwan University. You know, it took me five years, of course, to, uh… to get a meaning— real meaningful job that’s suitable to my background. But I wasn’t still in the planning field. And so I also, while teaching, I worked with the Multicultural Health Brokers Co-op. And finally, after 15 years, I found a job opportunity at the City of Edmonton that didn’t require, you know, a licensure. And so I applied and got accepted.

[00:12:45] So now I’m actually retired, uh, since 2020, but I retired as a planner with the City of Edmonton. But really, 15 years to get a job in your field, that’s such a long, long wait. Well, this is the journey of many newcomers and many of them didn’t get to reach, uh, you know, the things that I did because if you’re— you know, if you’re trying to survive, uh, earning something for the family, it’s very hard to even think of going back to school. So there are many— thousands of newcomers with professional degrees, with lots of experience in their home countries that actually didn’t get to, uh, practice, you know, what they studied and worked in. And not a lot of them get the opportunity to study in the— you know, an advanced program. So I’m one of not so many that were able to tread this path.

Emily [00:13:51] When you look at your life and what you’ve experienced, how do you feel that is represented in the type of data that’s out there and what that looks like?

Lucenia [00:14:05] Well, um, so for many years, we were invisible. A lot of information about us, you know, art being presented, uh, you know, race-based data. Really, it’s about making the invisible visible. There’s something wrong with one’s opportunity for success and advancement is determined by one’s identity. If information about that isn’t available, then this gap will never be known. And then, of course, solutions to reduce those gaps will never be identified. It’ll never be revealed as a systemic and societal issue if we don’t collect this data in an integrated and collective way.

Emily [00:14:50] So what would collecting that in an integrated way— how would that look?

Lucenia [00:14:55] In the last so many years, there’s been a lot of research and resources that have emerged around collecting race-based data. I mean, first maybe we should begin to understand what race-based data means. It really refers to one’s identity that relates to social construct, meaning we ascribe meanings to— or visual cues such as skin colour, shape of one’s eyes, or the colour of one’s hair. So there has been a lot of research. So really, when… when we say, “Well, we want to collect race-based data,” it’s— we’re referring to this racial identity that relates to physical characteristics. And over the years, uh, researchers in this area have kind of identified some examples of how one person would identify themselves based on, you know, race-based constructs. So Statistics Canada have started collecting this. Like, White or Caucasian, Black or Indigenous, Latino or Hispanic, Asian. So there are kind of racial… categories as they— as they say.

[00:16:04] Uh, there’s also, uh, data that relates to ethnicity or ethnic heritage that says someone identifies himself or herself based on a common cultural, religious, or linguistic heritage. So we say Arabs or Jewish or Korean or Filipino. So there is data. Th-the thing is, we’ve started collecting this at the federal level, but it hasn’t been done at the local level… yet. Uh, I think there is some… discomfort about collecting data based on these racial and ethnic identities. There are laws that can support, uh, why we’re collecting, uh, race-based data. So it’s— it is being done in some areas. What’s needed is really the will to do it. It’s not the lack of resources or tools to do it, it’s just the will of individual organizations at the— you know, at the provincial or municipal level. And also the bigger, uh, organizations that could have benefited from collecting race-based data. 

[00:17:25] I remem— remember, um, during COVID, when I was still with the Alberta Anti-Racism Advisory Council that we had recommended to the province, particularly Alberta Health Services, to start collecting race-based data, uh, to determine the level of risk and infection among, uh… you know, among different populations and where they should be focusing or targeting their— both their prevention, education and… uh, and treatment efforts. But as I actually said, it’s a recommendation.

Emily [00:18:04] And now you’ve been doing some work as well with a race-based community table around this, is that right?

Lucenia [00:18:11] Mm-hmm. So the race-based community, uh, table is being hosted by End Poverty Edmonton an-and the City of Edmonton. So this is a-a collective of practitioners and leaders across sectors. Academe, government, not-for-profit, and community, interested in defining best practices in race-based data collection and analysis. And to demonstrate how it could help in reducing disparities, particularly in health, education, and employment among populations. So, um, this group is about a year old. Once a month. We meet weekly to share, first of all, each other’s challenges in terms of revealing inequities and disparities among the populations that many of these organizations serve. But also, uh, there is a part— you know, the— right now, uh, we have a small initiative, uh, that we are now, uh, collecting, uh, best practices in race-based, uh, data collection and analysis. And once that’s done, we are hoping those who are representing organizations can actually take that and maybe, uh, do their own pilot.

[00:19:26] ‘Cause I think we see— We need to demonstrate first how it’s done and how it could benefit program development or even policy development, and of course, how this can actually improve the services and supports that’s being— being provided to racialized, uh, individuals and communities. Really, I-I just really want to emphasize this is not about identifying people and, uh, showing their challenges. That’s only a part of it. 

[00:19:57] This aggregating data by race and ethnicity is valuable, first of all, in identifying disparities among the population. ‘Cause we need to see how different populations— Because we all know that there are groups that are— have been historically at a disadvantage of their opportunities for… for advancement. Unless we show their own experiences and struggles, it’s very hard to find solutions for it. It’s not an individual’s responsibility. You know, these oppressive conditions are happening. We all know that these are rooted in systemic inequities, but without this data, it’s very hard to demonstrate that. It helps us to understand how and why opportunities, outcomes, and environments differ along racial lines. Why there are wage gaps, occupational segregation between racialized and non-racialized populations. And so I think that this is very important for all of us, for all of society to know this.

Emily [00:21:06] That was Lucenia Ortiz. 

The last person I’d like you to meet is Adora Nwofor. She’s an activist, writer, comedian, and producer based in Calgary. I’m going to leave you with her words at the end and a chance to reflect on what both she and Lucenia have shared with us. Both women have been profoundly impacted by the bias and gaps that we’ve been discussing, but they also have ideas about how to shake things up and reimagine how we can do much, much better. So, a huge thank you to both of them as well as Sydney for sharing with us during this episode. 

Here’s Adora.

Adora Nwofor [00:21:42] Thank you for having me on the show. I’m born, raised, and still living the racism dream in beautiful Calgary, Alberta, Canada. [quietly laughs] And so… that means that I have lived experience here in Alberta. My education is anthropology, but, uh, I’m an activist, a writer, producer, comedian, host, and many other things in en-entertainment. It’s really interesting. These things don’t usually fit together. And… I think that’s, quite frankly, the reason why… I see things the way that I do, uh, is because the experience of living in Calgary and then, um, having the education of anthropology, um, and then applying those things to my daily life, you know, it creates wisdom. Having this gaze and these experiences and knowledge around data collection is important. Probably also because you— I’m in my forties and they used to have the long-form census, uh, you know, when I was young.

[00:22:54] And a lot of the information that they took was misconstrued and used against people in, uh, the margins to make their lives even more difficult while benefiting people who are perpetuating oppression. And so, I don’t want to say, you know, “the community at large” or “the country at large” because oppression does not benefit the way that people think that it does. So, quite frankly, if you’re making, you know, 5% more because of oppression, you could really be making 50% more if everybody was able to live their full lives and participate in society in the way that is best for everyone.

Emily [00:23:48] So when it comes to looking at some of the bias with data and gathering that and reporting, obviously there’s a lot of… a lot of the story that’s not represented. And so when it comes to your experience and your story, how do you feel like that’s impacted you when you don’t necessarily see yourself in— whether that’s reports or just how decisions are made because of that?

Adora [00:24:14] [sighs] You know, being a Black person in Alberta, you know, very often we’re asked this question, like, “Where are you from?” I’m from here. And so… when it’s reported that, you know, there’s Black people on a report, people don’t know whether they’re an immigrant, whether they’re born here, whether they’re first generation, uh, you know, what languages we speak, what cultures we are, because we are polylithic. We are many things. Uh, and we don’t do everything the same. You know, Black people are queer, they’re gay, they’re lesbian, but you know, to lump everything into Black and then not process it in the ways that are human is what continues to harm us. 

[00:25:05] So very often on the census, you know, they’ll ask how many people live in the house. And, you know, we have big families… sometimes. Sometimes we don’t. Uh, and when they see that there’s, like, 10 people living in that house, well, is it because people can’t afford? Not necessarily. Sometimes it’s because, you know, grandparents are taking care of children, you know, so they don’t have to go to daycare. Sometimes there’s homeschooling.

[00:25:38] There’s so many different ways to process this information. For me personally, my… my name is Adora Nwofor. And when you write that [laughs] on a, uh, resume, very often it’s— that means immigrant. And so they’ll tell you, “You’re not a right fit for our… work culture.” And I— I’m like, “Let’s have a phone call. You’ll find out that I sounds like Karen.” [laughs] Uh, and I know this culture. Quite frankly, I’ve probably been here longer than the people who are trying to, um, hire me— or I should say “interview me” because I very often don’t get hired. And so that’s— that is horrific. I’m also—

[00:26:24] You know, when I go to the doctor— I-I went to the doctor for— I have twins. So when I met that doctor, the first thing that this person said to me was, “Hello, I’ve been looking for one of you my whole life, my whole work career.” And I was like, “What is happening?” This person wanted to study me, and I know that they were going to lump me into, “This is Black, this is Nigerian, this is—” But I am so many other things. And so they wanted to take that information and use it to their benefits when really, there’s so much more. Uh, and I think that we don’t necessarily need more information because the experience is informative. The experience right now, not the experience that we are going to process… in three years and then make some changes.

Emily [00:27:24] So how could that experience be better captured? Like, what should be done instead? Like, maybe less of a focus on collecting data and reporting this stuff and more of a focus on action?

Adora [00:27:39] On action, on context. When we hear that, you know, the jail population is Indigenous and Black more so than White folks, why is that? Why? It’s not because Black people or Indigenous people do more crime. We don’t. Quite frankly, crime is committed at the same rate in all communities. And when I say that, I’m saying… if we are basically on the same foundation. So if you go to— It’s-it’s not like Black people are committing— every Black person is committing crime or Black people are committing crimes over and over and over again. So when I say the same rate, I’m saying that it’s not, you know, 20 or 50 percent different. I’m saying it’s basically the same rate within, you know, 5 or 10 percent. The fact is that there are more White people, but the rates of them going to jail are less. Why is that? It is because the people who are deciding who is guilty look the same as the White people who are not going to jail because they have different contexts. They have different information.

[00:29:04] So they’ll say, “Okay, I know this guy’s dad, he’s working really hard to, you know, make a change in his child’s life. And, um— or “This child’s made one mistake. They’ve been perfect. Always.” We hear that story over and over and over again. Well, that happens to Black folks too, except we don’t get a second chance. We don’t hear the context. What people are seeing are numbers. So they’re seeing the percent and they’re like, “Oh, this is awful. So we have to do something about it.” So everybody’s now activated to do something about Black folks who have made a misstep, Indigenous folks that have made a misstep, People of Colour, but not White folks… because White folks are like, “Well, we’re gonna fix our community.” Well, we can fix our community too.

[00:29:54] And so the people who are, you know, getting in trouble, sometimes they have— are chronically committing crimes. Sometimes that’s because there’s no support. Sometimes that’s because they’ve had a bad experience. And our community, our governments, uh, our city has not supported them. You know, mental health is huge in our commun— in all communities. But Black folks don’t have access to that sort of mental health, uh, care at the same rate that White folks do. And when we do even access it, we are finding that we don’t have the type of representation that we need. So I am a Black woman, uh, who has experiences in Canada with racism. That means I have racial trauma. So, you know, a White man probably isn’t the person that I wanna discuss that with. But that’s the person that they send me to every time. It’s horrific. Because now I have to prove that I know what I’m talking about. I have to educate them, and then they will process that and then tell me what I am or am not based on, you know, a book, the DSM, that was created by people who wanted to oppress folks.

[00:31:22] So… we just keep— at every turn, at every turn, the information that is being collected about us is being used against us. And it is also because the people who are collecting the information don’t look like me. So then they don’t even know what actions to take. Because in Nigeria, there are hundreds of tribes. I’m an evil person. And so when I go to Nigeria, we do things differently. And so Yoruba people would bow, and I didn’t know that because I’m an evil person. So I never bowed. And now I know. That one little thing changes so much in the interaction of folks. And so if we were more concerned with changing the experience of, you know, the journey of life, more so than making money or proving things, having facts, everything… everything would be different.

Emily [00:32:30] That piece on the importance of who collects the data, that’s really important. Tell me more about that.

Adora [00:32:36] The thing is is that when Black people are doing the collecting— Quite frankly, all communities should be able to be collecting for themselves… and jointly. I am consistently learning about European stuff, Canadian stuff, White stuff. There’s Black Canadians. We almost never learn about it. We learn about one thing. And I didn’t get that experience. I didn’t get to learn about John Ware. And so I’m-I’m really pissed about it, [laughs] if I’m gonna be quite frank. And so when Black people are collecting information for Black folks, we care about each other because that is our child or our auntie or our cousin or our parent or, you know, our coworker, whatever the relationship may be. And so we are concerned about it. And then when we see and know each other, we can hold each other accountable. And not to be nefarious, but you know, for support and growth.

Emily [00:33:40] What would you like to see happen?

Adora [00:33:43] What I’d really love to see happen specifically in data collection, uh, specifically in Alberta, is some data collection on, uh, whiteness and how often it gets away with racism. I’d love to see that. I’d love to see how often Black folks are reporting acts of racism, period, and how often nothing happens. Why don’t we have that information?

[The Well Endowed Podcast jingle plays]

Anna [00:34:15] Thank you to Emily Rendell-Watson for bringing us this story. Emily spoke with Sydney Sheloff, the Strategic Research Coordinator at Edmonton Social Planning Council, Lucenia Ortiz, former Planner with the City of Edmonton, and Adora Nwofor, activist, writer, comedian, and producer in Calgary. We are very grateful for the time and perspectives they each shared for this episode.

Graeme [00:34:47] Head on over to our show notes if you’d like links to more information. We’ll have the link to Edmonton Social Planning Council’s report, Confronting Racism with Data: Why Canada Needs Disaggregated Race-Based Data. 

Anna [00:34:59] And you’ll also be able to find links to the latest on our blog and to upcoming granting deadlines and funding opportunities at ECF. We’ve got lots of ways for you to connect with us.

Graeme [00:35:09] Well, that brings us to the end of the show.

Anna [00:35:12] Thanks for sharing your time with us.

Graeme [00:35:15] We hope you enjoyed it. If you did, please share it with everyone you know.

Anna [00:35:19] And if you have a moment, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. This is a great way to support the show and help new listeners find us.

Graeme [00:35:28] Thanks again for tuning in. We’ve been your hosts, Graeme Lummer—

Anna [00:35:32] And Anna Alfonso.

Graeme and Anna [00:35:33] Until next time! 

[The Well Endowed Podcast music plays in background of outro]

Andrew Paul [00:35:36] The Well Endowed Podcast is produced by Edmonton Community Foundation—

Anna [00:35:42] And is edited by Andrew Paul.

Andrew [00:35:45] You can visit our website at TheWellEndowedPodcast.com—

Anna [00:35:48] Subscribe to us on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Andrew [00:35:53] Special thanks to Octavo Productions for our theme music.

Anna [00:35:56] And as always, don’t forget to visit Edmonton Community Foundation at ecfoundation.org.

[theme music continues playing for a few seconds after dialogue ends]